Lucario

[ikemastertd]

wel it's monday and no one has started a new one yet so i think ill start this one! lucario is potentially one of the greater characters. he has a strong ranged attack, a counter, and a unique ability! he does more damage as he takes more damage! witch is something no other charcter can do! so Lucario is all around beast!

[Anthony G]

haha you beat Lucco to it.

You say that it's beast how Lucario does more damage as he takes more damage. That is good in a sense and it's bad in a sense. It's good in a sense that you can make an awesome come back if Lucario is at a high percantage, but it's bad in a sense that it's really hard to get kills when he comes back to life or he's at a low percent. When Lucario is at a low percent, comboing is a lot easier since his attacks have little knockback, and you can potentially forward air someone off the stage.

Lucario also has a very good projectile. It can kill at fairly low percantages if you use it as an edgeguarding tool, since it has decent knockback and it's hard to avoid since it's large. This attack is even more useful when Lucario is at a higher percentage, since the hitbox is larger and it does more damage and knockback.

Lucario's down aerial is fast and is useful for approaches. Some people think his down aerial is a shffl, since his down aerial finishes quickly so there's no lag. Lucario's grabs/throws are also really fast. This makes them very useful for team battles since normally a grab or throw would be too slow to execute on a smaller stage.

Lucario's recovery (up-b) is also very good. It's fast and unpredictable. It's unpredictable because you can angle the direction he goes. The only thing about it is it can't be used as an attack (correct me if I'm wrong). One important aspect about his Up-B, is that after you use it, you can wall cling and then wall jump making it very hard to edgehog him (except on stages like FD).

Some down sides about Lucario are his running speed (not a big deal though), his attacks are weak at low percantages, and he lacks powerful aerials and attacks. Lucario needs to be around 70% to be able to KO effectively, and that's pretty dangerous considering a Marth Forward Smash Tipper could kill him. Lucario almost reminds me of Mario. They are both balanced in the sense that they have decent aerials, decent ground attacks, a decent projectile, and a decent counter attack (cape/Lucario Down-b).

If you have seen the Lucario combo video in the Brawl Video thread then I think we can safely say that Lucario will be at least Middle Tier, but I would place him as a high-ish middle tier

[ikemastertd]

i think that doing mroe damage with a higher % can only benefit him, because if he takes dmage anyway, it only helps that now he can do more damage, unless of course for comboing, but u shouldn't need to as much if you can do more damage with him! i think that his up-b does dmage either when he takes off or when he stops moveing(on that ictus) either way it wouldn't by but a few percent! but hey damage is damage! and so far he is the only good effective comboing charcter i have seen on any video!, but i havent seen that many videos, but still!

[Anthony G]

The first part of your paragraph made no sense, but I'll try my best to respond.

Doing more damage at a high percantage is of course benefitting him. The only problem is, at a low percantage, it's difficult to get kills. That's the point I'm trying to make. And having it so that you must be at a high percantage to get kills is risky, since you can DIE EASIER.

[ikemastertd]

wel think about it this way, they could have made it as low as it is, and not gain more damage as he gets to a higher %, how bad would that be

[Anthony G]

Yeah but they wouldn't do that since that doesn't make sense. It's still a con for Lucario since he's only able to kill when he is at high percents, whereas other characters can kill no matter their damage percent. I understand Lucario gets stronger, but having half of the match unable to kill and the other able to kill is bad.

[Duke Nukem]

Comboing is key, so Lucario is middle tier in my book. I don't care about the damage thing, because he can't combo. We've all heard the Jason-Marty story, and if you haven't, Anthony will tell it. The thing is, Lucario is more of a fun character than a serious one. Middle tier it is.

[Anthony G]

Lucco, go to the Brawl Video thread and see the Lucario Combo Video. Come back and tell me if he can combo or not.

[ikemastertd]

yea the video is one of the better comboing videos of brawl i have seen! anyway, what about his counter that has not been widely discussed yet. i think it could actually be a bad thing, and easy to be used against him, since it is not instant like marth or ike, however it is he has to go around behind them to strike, which could give a fast charcter plenty of time to get away or dodge! but this could also be used for him in a way that i don't know about!

[Anthony G]

Any character with a counter should not abuse it, because you will become too predictable. Only use counter when you notice your opponent is being overly aggressive. Having a counter is always a good thing, etc.

[Duke Nukem]

I meant he can't combo at high percentages. Low damage, and he can combo fine.

[Anthony G]

Yeah but he doesn't need to combo at high percents because his moves can kill. Although it'll be a problem when the opponent is at a low percent. Lucario is tricky, but once mastered he'll be too good.

[ikemastertd]

next person will be toon link because he is amazing, has flaots arrows big animated bomb explosions, and gravity doesn't affect him! and has a working boomarang! and his dair is supa fast and a spike! and has an amazing arial game! and is fast! and is strong! and is the best ever!

[Mizagium]

gonna start a Toon Link thread?

[Anthony G]

May 24, 2008 21:21:42 GMT -5 @ikemastertd said:

and gravity doesn't affect him!

wut

[Mizagium]

...DI?

[Anthony G]

DI is how you control your character while they're in the air (such as moving left or right and sometimes up or down)

DI is very useful because it can help you survive higher percents. (when you get knocked horizontally, move analog stick vertically so you can float back to the stage)

And I don't understand how you think floatiness is a good thing. Floatiness = slow
Anyone can make it back to the stage even if they aren't floaty, except Wolf.

[wolvy]

Lucario has some misconceptions here...let's get started!

Combo Potential - Lucario's ground game cannot combo well at high percentages, but his air game always can. Double Fairs only get more dangerous as time progresses, and his grabs are decent (especially Force Palm).

Up-B - His Up-B has nice distance, makes invincible (for a little bit) while Extremespeeding, and is an actual moved used by Lucario in DPM, but is highly punishable when you land. The ability to curve makes it good for avoiding some edgeguarding, but the land lag is terrible. Try to go for the ledge or wall, as landing could be your death.

Lucario is a very good character that can hold his own. Good early in the game with combos, with a good air game to keep it going. I think he has very good potential on the tier lists, but it all depends on the metagame. His counter is not that great, but he is very mobile and has an awesome roll and dodge.

Killers - All Smashes really, but his down smash has nice angle for killing and is the fastest. UAir for those above you, and Bair for anything else. Dair is very good, but try for more downward angles. Force Palm and grabs have awesome knockback at high damage.

Now discuss if you dare...

[Duke Nukem]

X-TREME SPEED. You spelled it wrong.

[Anthony G]

Very good insight Wolvy, we needed a post from a true Lucario main ^_^
You forget about his charged b move. Projectiles give awesome advantages and Lucario's can be used to kill. I actually think Mewtwo had more combo potential, but of course Brawl is still young and we can't judge Lucario's combo ability besides forward airs off the stage. Well really everyone in Melee had more combo potential because Brawl doesn't have many combos

[wolvy]

You ADD-melee addicts have to chill and accept the speed...just kidding. I think Brawl has combos, but none of them are like melee combos. If you were to pit Brawl characters versus Melee characters, it would be a one-sided fight. I think for combos to work, you have to use a lot more awkward combinations of moves than in melee, which adds to the suckiness.

Lucario has to combo in the air or with tilts, especially at high damage. Smashes are too slow and grabs will have too much knockback.

[Duke Nukem]

Combos are definitely harder in Brawl, but only because you have to be really fast to pull off any combo. Even then, dodging and DI will usually ruin it. Don't expect anything akin to the Ken Combo, it's going to be more spontaneous. I think combos will just be on the spot pwn streaks.

[Anthony G]

Robert, the reason Brawl lacks combos is because it lacks hitstun, you can't deny that. I guess you could say there are combos in Brawl if your opponent sucks and doesn't know how to DI, air dodge, or simply attack back. Combos in Brawl are more like attack -> wait for response -> attack again. If your opponent thinks you will attack but airdodges, then you can proceed to hit again once your opponent can do something else. If your opponent DI's, then move in closer. If your opponent attacks back, space yourself so you won't get hit and are able to counter back. It's all about mindgamez son.
Like Lucco said, don't be expecting the Ken combo or any other pre-made combo. Combos will just be on the spot and will hardly work at the pro level.

[Duke Nukem]

You've seen pro combo videos for brawl. They require incredible reflexes and intimate knowledge of your character's moves, so I think the pro game will still exist as separate from kids who are just having fun.

[Mizagium]

...also the realistic physics engine...